Yes sorry, this is exactly the reason I want to implement them.
Yeah, I think these are intresting observations and exactly why I wanted to chat about them a little here on the forum before implementing them. I fully agree that having one right in the middle of your empire could be a real problem.
Perhaps we should think about them as being “outside the map” perhaps at least range 5-6 (or more) from players normal field of combat.
So for example in this current flower map setup we are playing now, we could have a wormhole inside each petal and perhaps one on each of the corners.
In this game Yellow Hex and Green Pill are racing for first place, but becuase they don’t share a border they can’t fight each other directly. All they can do is try and push techs at allies that are near the front, while gobbling up the weaker players around them.
Having them far away is an awesome idea, as it gives people time to prepare defense. My only issue with this example is the ones near the middle would need adjustment.
As someone who was in the already hard to hold middle this game I could easily have seen someone like green pill hitting me from one side and at the same time flanking me through wormhole, which would leave me no chance.
I’d agree that putting them outside the map would be best, that way it could more accurately simulate two conventional borders butting up against one another. My 2 or 3 outside stars in range of the wormhole would remotely threaten the 2 or 3 outside stars in range of the other guy’s wormhole, which is comparable to what we’d experience if we were neighbors on the map.
Is it possible to randomize the wormhole locations/destinations? Otherwise, if I knew that the top left wormhole always comes out at bottom right, then that gives me an advantage and limits some of the excitement of being near a wormhole. If they dumped out in a different spot each game, that would continue the sense of colonization
I’m brainstorming about how wormholes might impact gameplay, and using the map Jay posted as an example, it seems that in that hypothetical configuration, it would cause a lot of chaos inside the petals of the flower, since there could be 20 or 30 players with wormhole access, while there may be 8 or so with access to the outer wormholes. I’m fine with that being luck of the draw, and don’t have an issue-it’ll work itself out. It just got me wondering what a game filled with 10 or 15 wormholes would look like-it would be absolute madness, as everyone would have wormhole threats to deal with on a constant basis. However, taking and holding linked wormhole access points would become paramount, and instead of winning by controlling a vast empire, the winner might be the person who can manage their wormhole vulnerability the best. If there are only a few wormholes, then everyone wants to control them, and it might be smartest to just avoid them and the conflict they’ll draw. If there are so many that they’re unavoidable, but of a relatively lesser importance, then it will add another dimension and level of strategy. It would be an interesting game to play at the very least.
Not only have I licked my NP obsession, I haven’t even thought about this blasted game all summer. Now this!!???
I have been agitating for wormholes for years maybe. (Has this game been around for a decade yet?). This will transform the game. YAY! I mean ohhh noooooo!
As I recall the conversation, this is a quick fix for torusified maps, to allow transit from one edge to another. As Jay has illustrated above. To equalize play between edge players and middle players in random hex games. The intent was not to pop up in the middle of someone’s empire, but to introduce another border, so every players has multiple borders to worry about.
So however implemented, they are map features, not ownable, and defended from nearby stars. A wormhole is a chokepoint, so ideally the wormhole chokepoints are as numerous as naturally occurring chokepoints in random hex games. So you need two wormholes (entry and exit) but they aren’t necessarily paired. Travel between two wormholes is instantaneous, but range is calculated as origin to entry plus exit to destination. Range limits thus apply.
I see the “where should wormholes be!” debate settled pretty easy by a couple options at game setup… “Random distribution” of wormholes, “outer edge” distribution or “map specific” (such as the 64 player Flower Petal idea with inner and outer wormholes).
Random galaxy map generation idea: An option to set up X wormholes in the galaxy, and when the game is creating the galaxy it places those wormholes AS IF they were player starting locations with some stars scattered around them. That way… you can NEVER have a wormhole start on top of your homeworld, as they will be a set distance away from every homeworld.
much like BB, I’ve taken the summer (plus some) off from the game, but saw something on Jay’s/IHG twitter about wormholes which prompted me to at least take a look
I’m following this discussion closely, and agree that wormholes should be placed on map edges or potentially the galaxy center.
MajorAwesome’s suggestion makes the most sense, allow for options determining where those wormholes end up.
I also like the idea of a travelling wormhole, ROGUE WORMHOLES! Just think, a natural galactic hazard that is conceivable within the map setting! Just imagine the chaos!!
Putting them in predetermined locations just disadvantages players that start far away from them (or advantages them, if you consider being near a wormhole bad news).
Just distribute them evenly/randomly and be done with it. It shouldn’t be too hard to adjust your strategy to defend or exploit them, just a little different.
A mathematical quibble from a decidedly nonmath dude.
If you take a square map, roll it into a cylinder, then bend it into a donut, you’ll have a torus. East meets west, and north meets south. You would need a number of wormholes, evenly spaced, along the edges, to do it justice. The idea is to remove any edges in the map.
I don’t see how it could disadvantageous for some players. The number of wormholes in that figures is hypothetical, while more wormholes in the circular galaxy, for example, more fair could be, because it could approximate more and more to an Stereographic Projection of that sphere galaxy over a plane (I considere sphere as good because there are no borders).
Here the previous sphere example with an hypothetical player distribution, note the two areas under control of “GUY 1”, they are no two areas, are one contiguous area because the wormhole. Note also each player has lots of neighbours, the “GUY 6” is not in disadvantage as in Triton games:
And lastly, this is what I’m considering before doing such affirmations. In the following figure, this is true:
Distance between A-B or B-C or C-D or D-E or E-F or F-A = 1ly
Distance between A-D or B-E: 2ly
Distance between C-F: 1ly because there is a wormhole
So, if I have a carrier in C, I can send it to B, D and F and the trip takes always the same time
My concern about using wormholes to remove the edges from the map is that it kind of takes the excitement or jeopardy out of the wormholes. I’ve fallen on the side of discussing how wormholes could be detrimental to a defensive player, but if they’re going to be implemented, I’d want them to be somewhat random, so it’s a new threat (or benefit, depending on my play style) every game.
If there were an option during game creation to select your specific tastes in wormholes-“Fixed” (they appear in somewhat the configuration suggested by @Zoquete above), “Random” (they appear in a less straightforward manner, perhaps showing up near (or inside) your borders), or “None” (if you hate wormholes all together).
different strokes for different folks, I guess. I am hoping this will “fix” random hex games, where starting as a middle players usually consigns you to a life that is nasty, brutish and short. In my experience the fact that location determines odds of winning contributes mightily to the AFK problem. I am not really looking to introduce a new randomly acting game feature, as much as improving game play. But, sure, provide choices, and let the players decide what they want to play.
I personally love the randomness of hex games. I enjoy starting in the middle with lots of enemies to deal with. More of a challenge in my opinion.
That being said, I don’t like the idea of using wormholes to take out the edges of the map. Their supposed to add new tactical variety to the game, not get rid of the variety we already have.
You make good points. I too enjoy the random terrain of a hex game. And hex games do provide some compensation for the middle players, such as a greater concentration of stars, important in early game when most are range limited. And scan trade only is a big help in giving a diplomatic boost to middle players, who have far more options than edge and corner players.
But as the game grinds on, those advantages become less important. Clever diplomacy becomes more important. IMHO, the reality is that most players, especially new ones, don’t have the Intestinal fortitude, or even the understanding, required to actually win from a middle position. With no shot at winning, the average player will go AFK.
it is my contention that a hex game without edges will add both tactical and strategic variety currently unavailable in NP2.
So I’m a little bit late to this conversation but I can give my thoughts,
What if wormholes destroyed 1/2 of your ships that were going through which means it’s less of a use it to teleport into the center of someone’s empire tool and more of a reinforce a far away area or ally kinda tool,
My Second suggestion is to have them spawn naturally when the game first starts on the outer edges of the galaxy and have some tech that allows to you move them to different stars/area around stars…for an expensive price of course which lets you move someone’s warp to a place more beneficial to you
Yes, I was thinking this might be an intresting mechanic.
Just wanted to pop in here and say thanks very much for playing.
I am sitting down to do wormholes today - and unless blight explodes under the pressure of the steam release, I’m not going to be distracted by anything else until its done and the next Proteus test game is running. (to test the wormholes)
Given that we were unsatisfied with the Scanning changes we made, I’m still looking for simple, elegant ideas for how scanning and range can improve your economy so that it makes sense to continue to invest in them.
my paint skills are not ok right now.