New Rule - Ship limits at stars


#1

Ship production at a star will be suspended when there is more than 100x a stars Natural Resources in ships in orbit.

In other words, you cannot have more than 5000 ships parked at a Home Star and produce new ships at the star at the same time.

If you are getting close to the limit its time to attack the enemy.


Problem: Game round does not load
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Penalties for quitting/AFKing
#2

This is…interesting.

Seems like a low limit.


#3

Are you in any games where you are hitting the limit?
Is there a reason you are not using the ships to attack?


#4

No, nothing currently. I honestly can’t tell you the last time I had 5000 ships at a star.

But here’s the thing that I’m just thinking - 100 x NR is the limit. That means you can only have 100 ships at a 1 NR star. The rate of production is the same whether the star is 1 NR or 50 NR because it’s based off of Industry/Manu. So I feel like I’d be punished for having a lot of smaller NR stars later in the game, especially in galaxies where NR are sparse. I’d have to have frequent carrier loops from those stars just so my production is not inefficient, otherwise I’d “lose” ship production.

I understand the point and the goal of this. We don’t want ship buildups at borders without action. But there are times where I have to wait to reach the next weapons level. Or attacking someone isn’t prudent at that point in the game. I don’t want to play a game that turns into “attack everyone else on sight”. I hate playing the hyper-aggressiveness and prefer to play a strategy, long term game.


#5

If it becomes a problem we can tweak the numbers. I think 100x should be fine.


#6

I like it, let me get it straight though: So I can still HAVE the million-ship border build-up being reinforced by all my other production, but that specific star I’m reinforcing won’t produce more ships? That’s cool.

I can’t think of a time this would have greatly impacted my gameplay except one- It feels to me it’s designed to stop production on, and eventually, crack open the “last stand” star when a person is consolidating all their forces in one place?

I DO like where you’re going with this, encouraging more action!


#7

I am OK with that idea.

But I can understand other players who do not want production to hard stop.
So I offer this suggestion for a feature request.

What if instead of a hard cut-off suspension, there is a degradation of manufacturing efficiency ?

When there are too many ships visiting a star, there is inefficiency of manufacturing, and resource support.
Manufacturing of ships continue, but at reducing rates.

ships at star , manufacturing multiplier
< 100x NR , 1/1 = 1 / ( 1 + 0 )
< 200x NR , 1/2 = 1 / ( 1 + 1 )
< 300x NR , 1/3 = 1 / ( 1 + 2 )
< 400x NR , 1/4 = 1 / ( 1 + 3 )
< 500x NR , 1/5 = 1 / ( 1 + 4 )
and so on . . .
It is an easy INT function.

I hope this does not break the server ?

EDIT

or use Terraformed Resources instead of NR, as whichever Jay decides to use.


#8

It would be good if this were an option that could be enabled or disabled when setting up a game.

Also what is to stop you from just looping a carrier between nearby two stars with Garrison (NR x 100) set? You will only stop production for 1hr when the fleet is actually on the star in that case?


#9

Interesting idea but wouldn’t it be better to take the Terraformed Resources into account. This would fix the poorly resourced stars limit in the later game.

I’ve hit the limit on a lot of stars in http://triton.ironhelmet.com/game/5071401591504896 but this is a rather strange game that has included a probable winner going AFK by accident. I was too weak to attack him and he was busy elsewhere so built up a lot of ships which I’m now using productively. I’ll read the other game mod info at From 3 to 6 Missed Turns in TBG as that looks as if it would also have affected this game.

Thanks Jay for continuing to think of ways of improving this already great game.


#10

I believe this will dramatically increase standoffs. No one will be able to get ahead of another player once they have several large developed planets near each other. Resource management and infrastructure purchases won’t be able to break the standoffs. There’s enough standoffs now.


#11

@JayKyburz as to the question of being in games where the 5000 limit is hit? 5000 is a a pretty small fleet in the later stages of a lot of games. 40K was the last fleet on my last planet in a recent game. The leader had millions of ships at that point.


#12

As written in the comments above:

  • Terraformed ressources
  • Optional (activated in standard games)

That would be nice.


#13

I agree with cptcrackers that this may have unintended consequences of causing MORE standoffs.

For example, say I have three resource 1 stars surrounding an enemy resource 50 core. There’s decent TF (common in large galaxies) in the game, so I can build good Industry … but once I have a 100 ships, I don’t get any more. Whereas the dude with the resource 50 star can “turtle” until he hit 5,000.

Note that it does make high resource stars even more valuable … which is good IMHO.

This also adds complexity to the game … are you Jay planning to modify the code so a message is displayed saying something like “This star builds 3.75 ships every hour but since you have 4990, it won’t do any more after 3 hours”


#14

The more I think about it, the more I think this one rule change pretty much changes the entire game in every aspect. I just keep thinking of more ways this changes everything. Researching MFG and terraforming will become pointless after a certain point

Does the rule prevent you from LANDING more than 5000 on a star? Do carriers have a limit as well? If there’s no limit on carriers and there’s no limit on how many ships can be landed on a star, then you can keep up production on the star by having a carrier on a loop simply pick up the ships constantly and move back and forth between a couple of stars.

Because it’s POSSIBLE to do that, it will be NECESSARY to do that in order to keep up. That is going to be VERY tedious.

Also, this may increase AFK’s and quits. The random map has the potential to screw some one far more than it did before. If you get a bunch of weak planets to a side with a strong player, it’s going to strongly restrict the number of ways that you can defend those stars.

This will cause players who start to lose ground to lose ground more quickly. They won’t be able to crank up production on their last remaining stars in order to go into a defensive posture as easily. I’ve seen people get pushed back, but manage to createa production center that stalls their opponent. Sometimes this is so help can arrive, sometimes it’s so that they can come bursting out later at a good moment. That will probably not happen anymore. The rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer much more quickly now.


#15

Nope.

Nope

Yep.

But how about just attacking.

I want the rule to encourage you to pick and an enemy and attack.

I didn’t think it through to that level, but hey, that works towards the game goal as well.

My intention is to end long slow drawn out cold wars. I want games to come to conclusion a little faster.

A more heavy handed tactic I could employ would be to say that no game last longer than 6 weeks (in ticks) and that the player with the most stars at the end is the winner.


#16

A lot of us actually enjoy long drawn-out games with plenty of scope for tactics and strategy. I had understood, Jay, that you wouldn’t drasticaly change the basic game but would only bring in alterations as alternative choices when setting up games. I would certainly prefer that approach.


#17

Yes, but I think perhaps we may not see eye to eye on what the basic game is.

In my view, games that reach these kinds of ship counts have stagnated and need to be drawn to an end.

I don’t believe this is a major change, but please play it for a while and let me know what the impacts are. If we find that it has significant negative impacts on the game we can try something else to bring the game to an end.


#18

I think the new rule would be much more palatable if it was 100X the TERRAFORMED resources of the star rather than the NATURAL resources.

The former is much more scalable as “inflation” naturally increases the number of ships … with a corresponding increase in Terra. Plus I’ve actually played a couple of games where it was setup starting with TF10 - adds an interesting dimension to the game … but you could hit that production limit pretty soon.

BTW, even if you put a message up on the “star screen”, players may not notice that production has stalled since the ship counts are kinda high.

@cptcrackers makes some good points in that this may balance the scales even more in favor of the player with more stars - if anything, you want to give the weaker players some way to fight back.


#19

I can’t say I’ve been in many games stalemated as Jay describes. If you’ve got multiple belligerents with that kind of fleet size I say more power to them. I certainly wouldn’t want to see the games time limited, except by custom setting.

However, perhaps some sort of decay rate for fleets might be interesting. For small fleets the decay would round to zero, but the larger the fleet the larger the percent decay per tick. Use it or lose it.


#20

Yep.

But how about just attacking.

I want the rule to encourage you to pick and an enemy and attack…

My intention is to end long slow drawn out cold wars. I want games to come to conclusion a little faster.

A more heavy handed tactic I could employ would be to say that no game last longer than 6 weeks (in ticks) and that the player with the most stars at the end is the win

Jay, you’ve created an awesome game. Let me start with that. This change, and the reasons you’re giving for it don’t Improve the game for everyone. What they do is attempt to impose a seemingly personal preference about strategies and play styles that people should use.

In my view, games that reach these kinds of ship counts have stagnated and need to be drawn to an end.

I couldn’t disagree more. and I don’t think I’m alone… this is when the REAL wheeling and dealing and backroom moves take place.

I think the 6 week timer is a better idea than ship counts. HOWEVER, I don’t think it should be imposed on custom games except as an option.

I also think that Hulk is right if you HAVE to have limits, then them to terraformed resources.