Submit last, submit twice (was: Force 'next turn' in admin controls)


#1

Currently administrators can jump ahead some number of ticks, but in turn based games it seems like it would make more sense to jump ahead a turn. Crucially, if one jumps ahead, everyone’s “turn submitted” flag should be cleared.

I wanted to create a turn based game with admin control with a note in the description that “submit last, submit twice” etiquette would be enforced (by skipping to the next turn if the last person to submit one turn was again the last to submit the next turn). However, it looks like the admin can’t actually do that.

Better yet, I think “Submit last, submit twice” would be a nice option (even a good default) as automatic behavior in turn based games. If set on, then whenever a player is a last to submit (or they never submit and the time limit elapsed) they would go in to the following turn with their turn already submitted, so they would just have until everyone else submitted to take action. Seems like this would actually be pretty easy to code.

I know turn based games aren’t necessarily supposed to be fast, but it’s really annoying when that one player is last to submit every single turn.


Planning star upgrades in advance
#2

+1 for having this be an automatic option, I’m in a game right now where one of the players is waiting until the absolute end just to be annoying… and pretty much every turn based game this happens, sometimes out of malice, sometimes just because all hope is lost (but maybe have a big fleet on a low resource star not worth bothering with) so the game isn’t on the forefront of their thoughts anymore, yet they’re hanging out in the game still and periodically clicking submit or sending money to a previous ally.


#3

Absolutely! I get the occasional situation where life gets in the way of submitting a turn, but it really is a matter of courtesy. I have seen other players argue that it is their right to submit whenever they want, but it isn’t your right to be a jerk about it. Another situation I see a lot is players signing in, posting messages, then not bothering to submit their turn. I can understand there are some situations where they are waiting on another player to come back and send them tech or money, so they don’t submit, but countless times, they just want to be last.

I would be fine with a ‘Missed last turn, automatically submitted for the next turn’ setting. Have it not count that auto submitted turn as an AFK reset unless the player actively logs in during that turn, just like in standard games. A ‘last to submit previous turn, auto submit if last on subsequent turn’ option is a good idea too.


#4


#5

sometimes I don’t submit twice because I want to make sure I get my trades :frowning:


#6

@JayKyburz doing that occasionally is understandable, but wouldn’t it be worth losing some trades to fix the situations where someone has to be last every single turn, holding the game up? One could just have a shorter turn timeout of course, but the 12 hour timeouts can be easy to miss (or hard to fit in) if one has a busy day. And yet, the 24 hour games tend to drag, particularly when you get that one guy submitting last all the time.

And, for the trade situation, you can work around it – ask the person you’re trading with to hold their turn, and let them know when you will be on to complete the trade.

It seems like this would be a pretty easy option to create, and then we could see – are games with this option set, or those without more popular? Maybe I’m an unusual sort of turn-based player, I’d almost like to play real time games, but sometimes that’s just a bit too much of a commitment.


Jump Tick not cleaning "submitted" status
#7

Trading is also something that causes me to occasionally delay a submit turn (real life sometimes too). There was a suggestion at one point for something like a secure trade option, I believe that could alleviate some troubles related to this (but not all, I like the idea of an admin tool to automatically submit a turn if 1 person is delayign the process).

For example, I could set up a trade that I have talked about with someone on a previous turn for say Weapons for Banking. I submit my Banking into the secure trade option, ask for Weapons, but it doesn’t deliver the Banking until Weapons is submitted. If the other player declines or wants to change the trade, then it fails and needs another setup. I could set up my trade, not worry about doublecrosses, and happily submit my turn, speeding it up for all… I think Jay didn’t like this idea, but it might be worth a look.

The above would eliminate the obstacles to a Submit last, submit twice default…


#8

I recall Jay didn’t like it, as it took the risk out of it. However, what if you had a choice between a traditional trade and an escrowed trade. Maybe charge an additional fee to the player initiating the trade. Maybe $5 or if that isn’t enough, then $5 per level. Then it could delay a turn based game even after all turns are submitted until either the trade was finalized/rejected or the Turn time expired. It would also need to notify the recipient in an obvious way and maybe include a message on the Leaderboard saying “Next Turn Pending Trades”


#9

Remember, if you’re submitting last than no one else will have submitted. So, whoever you want to trade with will not have submitted yet. If they’re interested in trading, they will likely be willing to hold their turn as well.


#10

He speaks the truth! Again, it really just comes down to etiquette. Take your turns in a timely manner. If you are working or sleeping, no worries. If you are in the game sending messages or talking smack but refuse to submit your turn, you should have your turn bumped for you.

I’ve seen player chatting in game, presumably set their orders, then let every other turn expire just because they want to keep the turn time where it is despite the fact that everyone else was ready 6 hrs earlier. They’ll then play their next turn with 5 minutes to spare so the game resets their ‘missed turn’ count.


#11

I understand all your arguments, and it is certainly an annoying phenomenon.

But please keep in mind that a player consistently submitting late can also be a function of the timezone he is living in combined with his personal circumstances (for example: only one small time window in a day to play).


#12

If that is the case Camelorn, then as they are the last to submit one turn, they should be the first to submit the next turn. Since, by your own hypothetical situation, they only have time once a day to play.

That clearly doesn’t apply to some of the players I and others have encountered in games, where they check in multiple times during the 12 hr window, chat with others, and never bother to click the submit button. Then they get really verbally abusive to anyone that suggests that they could take their turns a little quicker. Basically telling everyone else that their personal time is more valuable than anyone else’s because they are better than you.


#13

@Brian_Flowers: You are right, the effect i have described should only happen every other turn. The behaviour you describe really is annoying.


#14

Well, there will always be annoying ppl slowing things down, but sometimes the person you want to trade with already submitted when you get there and then you have to hold your turn to see if they come back on or not… Sometimes, people just forget to trade or purposefully withhold a trade, pretending they didn’t see message. There are many things going on, one scenario doesn’t cover it all.


#15

True, there will always be annoying people slowing things down, but it seems like having an option to force “submit last, submit twice” would cut down some of the most annoying behavior automatically. Incremental progress can still be worth it.

Again, the “submit last, submit twice” behavior would only kick in after submitting last, so it wouldn’t prevent doing what you describe – if someone has already submitted, it means you haven’t just submitted last (at which point a new turn will start and no one will have submitted). The behavior itself isn’t necessarily a punishment, and I’m not saying submitting last is bad behavior. It’s just that once you have submitted last, for whatever reason, you shouldn’t get to hold your next turn, nor should you really need to. At that point you can ask your trading partner to hold their turn if you really need it held. If they’re ignoring your message then what’s the point of holding the turn anyway – to punish them?

Finally, yes, there are probably some (narrow) situations for which there would be no workaround, where a trade might be missed as a result of that behavior. I think for a lot of players, on balance this would still be worth it to keep the game moving. But do note that I’m asking for this to be a setting, I think it’s an appropriate default setting but still a setting. For those folks who this behavior really doesn’t work for, they could avoid games with this setting.


#16

Seems to me that we don’t disagree. :smile:

I did not argue against your suggestion, in fact, I think as an option it could be helpful. I was just describing a situation (trading related) that comes up sometimes that delays submitting a turn on occasion. This is why I would like the secure/escrow/“some name” trading option, but that could be a whole other thread, and it is easier to hijack yours than make a new one. :smile:


#17

This would be a great addition to turn based games. And once it would be in the game and everyone knows this rule it could also work as a motivation to join the kind of game that you are comfortable playing. I think currently people favour the shorter turn limit games because they know it is easy to constantly drag it as last person to submit. All they need to do is to submit once every 3 turns and it goes on at slowest possible speed.

So definately submit last, submit twice. And of course submit last should include everyone that didnt submit at all.


#18

Ditto what Brian and Dysp said …

The only possible downside I can see is that a person who is REALLY out of touch could possibly get bounced out in less than 3x the turn time.

I.e. say it is a 12 hour turn game … but due to RL (happens and everyone understands/respects that) so he doesn’t submit … and is first to do so on the next round. Then everyone else submits really quick (say within an hour) for the 2nd turn … so then he only has 12 hours to get online to submit (remember, he’s not longer last to submit) for the 3rd turn or he times out.

So instead of going AFK in 36 hours, he goes in 25 hours … which could be good if he really was going AFK … but bad if RL interfered. Realistically, it’s almost never going to happen that all other players will submit in an hour … but just want to point out that if the player who has RL issues expects a 36 hour window to get back in, it may not happen. Again, in the vast majority of cases, players are going AFK anyway.

You could address this “every-other” approach by making the timeout 4 turns … so in the “final” round, the auto-submit would happen … but the player would have time to login and reset the timeout until everyone else submits.


#19

Yes, we wouldn’t want folks to go AFK faster because of this change, and the mitigation you suggest seems like an easy way to prevent that.

Another possible bad side effect could be that when games are down to a few players and turns are flying pretty fast, one can be last to submit even if one submits quite promptly. And, the other players could be waiting for that having planned out a series of moves they don’t want that last to submit player to respond to, and jump on their submit buttons as soon as the game moves forward. To mitigate that, this should probably actually be implemented by setting that player’s turn timeout to 1 hour, rather than actually immediately auto-submit.


#20

Good thinking suffusion … how about this guys.

If you are last to submit, then it shows as an auto-submit for half the time-interval.

I.e. in a 12 hours game, if you are last, it shows as you will submit in 6 hours (you can obviously submit sooner).

And then if you did the 4 strikes you out I was talking about, you are guaranteed at least 36 hours from going completely AFK. I.e. you wait 12 hours, then auto-submit is done at 6 hours (but you aren’t marked as last), then 12 hours, then 6 more before you are AFK … could be longer if other players aren’t all done at turns #2 and #4.