Suggestion: More Info on Zombie Movements

[shde2e]

@Eshal

Hmmm, I have a feeling you’re making this game out to be a lot tougher than it actually is. Right now I’m playing 12 games simultaneously and I’ve probably spent no more than 5 or 10 minutes with each game all day.

Yes, but that isn’t exactly relevant for other people. It’s great that you can handle so many games so easily (though i have no idea how you pull that off ^^ ), but a lot of other people simply don’t, either because they’re not as good (whatever that means) or because they use strategies that require way more micromangement.

@Eshal

The reason I bring this up is because currently, I can’t win a game unless I have a 3 stone handicap; but that doesn’t discourage me from trying to learn it. I have a very real world view that people spend their entire lives studying and perfecting this game. I don’t expect the game to be something I can just walk into and perfect; if I wanted that I would go learn to play another game like checkers.

That said, if you really do have trouble planning on zombie movement there is always and easy mode setting you could try instead. As I said earlier I would suggest re-playing many of the single player maps each time using what you learn to improve your strategy. Practice is the best way to get better.

Keep at it and I’m sure you’ll be managing those hoards like a boss in no time.

Sorry if this sounds a bit mean, but this part kinda comes across as somewhat condescending, elitist nonsense to me. Essentially, it sounds like a 3 paragraph version of Git Gud.

Our problem (from our point of view) isn’t that we’re bad at the game (regardless of whether we are or not). Our problem is that in order to play anywhere near our skill level, we currently need to check in to either adjust our plays or give the subsequent orders every 4-6 hours. That means we either need to let the game disrupt our actual lives, or accept a severe handicap while playing the game.
So our problem is not the difficulty, it’s that a large part of that difficulty has nothing to do with the actual game, and feels very artificial and avoidable.

Meanwhile, this problem could be circumvented by giving more information and tools to plan and execute our plans further ahead of time. (Not complaining about the devs btw, we’re still in beta and they’re doing awesome so far )

[Eshal]

@shde2e

Sorry if this sounds a bit mean, but this part kinda comes across as somewhat condescending, elitist nonsense to me. Essentially, it sounds like a 3 paragraph version of Git Gud.

I don’t take your comment as being mean at all. I tend to be a very blunt person; much like your comment. The main point I was trying to make here is twofold… Many things in life require practice, and secondly lending a few pointers which might help improve your game-play experience.

@shde2e

Our problem (from our point of view) isn’t that we’re bad at the game (regardless of whether we are or not). Our problem is that in order to play anywhere near our skill level, we currently need to check in to either adjust our plays or give the subsequent orders every 4-6 hours.

I don’t really see this as being a problem with the game mechanics for zombie movement. It sounds like what you’re looking for is a game with ‘perfect’ strategy (i.e. TicTacToe as a simple example). The problem is that if there is a ‘perfect’ strategy, either the the outcome of the game will always be a draw (as in my example) or the outcome of the game will predetermined.

Game theory calls these type of games ‘solved games’ which might be OK if blight were simply a puzzle game, but I’m pretty sure the design intent is supposed to include a fair amount of strategy.

Personally I prefer the game to have an element of “imperfect information”. It certainly makes the game more interesting planning for contingencies rather than only planning for a single known event. If that were the case, most games could be played checking in less than once a day.

[Eshal]

Warning lots of quotes ahead… I wanted to re-cap some of the highlights about what been discussed so far and my interpretation of them.

I’m sorry that I had made an assumption that you were having difficulty with the game. I read into your comments that was the case because the idea of skill keeps coming up over and over again. I took many of the comments in this thread to mean ‘lack of skill’ mainly because I tend to play at a high skill level that doesn’t require me to log in at 2 AM or check in every 20 minutes. It never occurred to me that skill would require logging in so frequently or at oddball times.

I also folded this into the idea that Mike pointed out, that new players would be turned off by having to check in so frequently based on the talk that zombie movement was so ‘unpredictable’. Hence I mis-took that to mean since you feel you have to log in so frequently that you were somewhat newer to the game. I feel like a majority of my suggestions were geared towards offering some tips newer players might find useful for overcoming the imposing nature of the game. I played so many of the single player maps over and over again when I started, that by the time I got to MP I found that the game wasn’t daunting at all.

There’s also been a fair amount of discussion regarding somehow feeling ‘obligated’ to check into the game at all times and the desire to play need to only check in twice a day. I already play this way, where I only check in on each game 2-3 times a day, and I don’t feel that my game play suffers as a result. I guess my game play experience has just been different.

I guess the point I take most seriously here though is that the discussion keeps coming back around to being ‘forced’ to check in. I don’t think there is anything defined in the game that ‘requires’ you to check in frequently to play it. I view this as a matter of choice more than anything else.

@shde2e

Our problem is that in order to play anywhere near our skill level, we currently need to check in to either adjust our plays or give the subsequent orders every 4-6 hours. That means we either need to let the game disrupt our actual lives, or accept a severe handicap while playing the game.

@MikeLemmer

And all of these suggestions about utilizing experience and specific tactics to avoid having to check it every 4 hours or at 2 AM in the morning to succeed? Even discounting situations where they won’t work, they all require experience with the game. Experience new players don’t have. And their novice opinion is going to be that the best way to figure out what the game is doing is to check it every 3-5 hours and occasionally at 2 AM, and thus it’s a game that doesn’t respect players’ time or schedules.

@MikeLemmer

Experience and gaining bonuses are accepted methods of progression, and even the default decks have enough cards that a novice can still contribute. Having to get up between 2 and 3 AM to tell which way the zombies are going is harder to swallow.

@shde2e

Ideally we’d find a way so that we could login 1-2 times a day when we want, rather than have the game dictate it, as happens all too often right now.

@MikeLemmer

That still leaves the initial problem untouched: that short-term recon encourages constantly checking the game at all hours for optimal play, which turns off players who want to play without feeling like they’re crippling themselves unless they’re constantly “on call”.

@MikeLemmer

We enjoy the game as a whole, but feel obligated to “show up at all hours” to win or get the highest score feasible. We just don’t have another way of doing the same thing yet.

@MikeLemmer

That means the game’s difficulty is inversely related to how much time you devote to checking on it. This can be bad on both ends of the spectrum: casual players are frustrated by how hard it is if you only check it 3-4 times a day, while hardcore players are disappointed at how easy it is if they check it 20-30 times a day (including in the middle of the night).

[xjhdexter]

So what you are suggesting is that the games could have some adjusted speed settings, slow turn based, real time, quad speed like NP2, so each player could play at a pace that fits more comfortably with their RL ?

[shde2e]

I agree that this discussion has kind of gone off the rails. It seems to have fallen to a lot of page-long monologues where we talk past each other half the time.

So to clear things up a bit, I’m going to try and describe the issue we are running up against and which this and a few other recent threads have tried to adress.

Big post ahead FYI.

Our problem is that the following situation frequently occurs:
We know what we have, where we have it and what we can do. We know where the zombies are, what they currently have and what they are currently doing. from this, we have created multiple plans or courses of action to try and tackle our current situation. We know what we want to do during every step of our plans, and we know our exact response to every potential action from the zombies (at least initially). However, we cannot give the orders to carry out this plan in it’s entirity, but in order to do so we would have to log in multiple times between now and the completion (or identified point of failure) of our plans.
This is because of 2 possible reasons:

1. Lack of information
2. The game does not enable us to give the required commands.

1 Lack of information
This is when we know our actions during every possible scenario, but we dont know which scenario is going to occur. For this we need information which isn’t availible. Sometimes this information will be availible at a later point (for example OP’s 2 towns problem), or which is simply not given to us (will zombies spawn in that graveyard in the next 6 hours, and how many?) Not all of these cases are necessarily a problem that need fixing, and sometimes this is simply impossible (or at least impractical) and would reduce the game.
I have identified 3 reasons why we lack this information.

1. The information isn’t generated yet.
   Zombie movement is a good example. Since it is determined per league, the computer doesn’t KNOW it’s entire path, only the rules which it uses to determine this. I don’t think this information needs or can be reasonably given.
2. The information is randomly generated
   For example, will zombies spawn this spawning cycle, the OP’s town problem, combat survival. This information cannot be given ahead of time, since it is generated when it is needed. Generally the only way to find this information is by logging in afterwards to see the results. This is one of the reasons we feel the need to log in so often, as this information sometimes determines your next course of action, and often requires fast decisions.
3. Hidden information.
   The game has this information, it just doesnt give it to us. Spawn cycle timers are an example, as is any RNG information which is generated ahead of time (depends on how it’s implemented). Sometimes this information can be deduced by the player (like spawn cycle timers) through observation. In this case you could argue that we should be given this information, or that it should be treated more like random information by the player.

2. The game doesn’t let us
This ties back in to various other threads. It’s when we know exactly what we want to do, but because of how the controls are implemented or limited, we can’t give the orders to do it.
To give some examples: you want to perma stun a stack. you have a hero in range, not being threatend by any other zombies, and the mana to supply him. However, you can’t tell the hero to cast it ahead of time, and after that 6 hours, the stack is no longer stunned. Because of this, you need to log in every 6 hours (and no sooner!) in order to give a command you knew you were going to give him from the start. If you log in later, the stack moves even though you are fully capable of stopping it.
Same with moving after recruiting. You need to log in after 6 hours to give an order you had determined 6 hours ago, or have the unit waste time standing around. The same applies to doing stuff after moving (capturing, merging with units, joining an army, casting an ability etc.)
And since you have all kinds of timers running through each other, in order to play optimally you need to log in a lot more than the preferred 1-2 times a day. The less you log on, the more you waste in-game time and handicap yourself.

Well, I think that covers most of it. the information problem (which started this thread) is rather subjective, and we can discuss that more. From what i’ve gathered, most people would like some sort of solution to parts or all of the 2nd problem, but we’re not quite sure how to solve it and whether the solution is practical. An order queueing system has been disscussed and generally approved of in some form in an earlier thread, so maybe check that one out too.

[Eshal]

That’s a little better explanation than earlier to these two points I would say…

1. I’m not sure anything should be done about the first point(s). “Imperfect” information is a component of many games, and it does add some depth to the game in terms of planning for contingencies.

2. I think you’re looking for Blight to be a fundamentally different game altogether. That said, Blight does have an optional game mode which is available to Premium players where you can jump ahead in 6 hour intervals, or even pause the game. It sounds like that’s more what you’re looking for. In fact you can pause the game, and then time jump it to make Blight completely turned based.

Submit your turn, have the game creator jump the map ahead 6 hours, repeat. Also, I know Jay has talked about possibly expanding the time jump feature to be something more like it is in single player; where you can jump ahead in 1 hour increments, but if it’s less than 6 hours you pay some valor.

[AutoBahnBismark]

I know I’m a strategic micro-manager, and I’m also travelling between west coast US and India/Africa fairly often, so I’ve learned that I can’t often be in a multiplayer game and still live a good life. I’ve got to focus on single-player unless I’ve got a fairly flexible week ahead.

So far the most compelling ideas offered have been about a mutually agreed “game pause” for those multiplayer games in which the players can work that out together. I do like the chaos factor that requires micromanaging, since that’s where I really find most of my enjoyment lies, but I also understand that it would be nice to “zoom out” a bit in order have a game that you can still play at your best without having to check on things every 2 hours.

So what if the clock never stopped, but you could have slightly more complex order queuing? “Go there and take the town, then go there and fire off your special ability, then retreat back to the town.” That would continue to provide the deep strategy play as well as taking additional risks in your planning, kind of like RoboRally or something, without dumbing down the chaos factor.

[shde2e]

I think we’ve been discussing that a while ago in another thread. Maybe check that one out too