New Feature Today: Trade with scanned players only

41

I’m still in the game (but will be knocked out within the next week or so, as one of my primary allies unfortunately quit leaving me open to attack from multiple sides). I like the trade rules. It makes the local game much more tactical.

I think if combined with revamped terraforming (qwerty’s formula suggestion), the local region will be very interesting - trade with only close people and fight over specific high value stars - making the game a much more tactical devious endeavor.

As others have pointed out, it makes simply buying tech less feasible. In another game I’m playing, I basically didn’t bother with science at all and just pumped economy to buy the tech with. Its not a very interesting strategy because I always have top tech and there is no strategy involved.

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I’ve noticed that too. Let one or two players buy the science and you can pump Econ and just buy the tech.

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If you’re going to limit trading to players in scan range, why not also limit communications?

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I actually think the tradeoff between position and potential trading partners makes other maps interesting as well. For example, I haven’t played a random hex game in a long time, since I think edge v middle positions are very unbalanced. The trade limitations might make a big difference to that format.

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If it turns out to be fun I will enable it on by default in all games.

46

I am still in the game and there are a lot of AFK players around me. Their techs are slightly lower than mine except a neighbor who quit when he had a lot of stars. Everything is lower except weapons tech. I am now at cycle 18 tick 454 with only 25 players left. 3 players have about 1/3 of the total stars needed to win the game. During the early game the AI is really weak but around mid-game they start to become slightly weaker than you but not too weak.

When I mentioned changing the AI trading behavior slightly so they can research things faster, I take that back. Everything is good how it is. The AI is still weaker than everyone else but not too weak. You have to attack them with a descent force. The AI doesn’t need to be very strong or very weak. Having the AI slightly weaker is probably best.

47

Is the AI subject to the same trade range restrictions as a human player, or do they all band together to share tech without those limits?

48

Can I ask what happens if you play these new trade rules with formal alliances turned on? Does making a formal alliance with someone on the other side of the galaxy effectively double the players you can trade with (as you can now trade with everyone they can see)?

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Andy, I asked the same the first day it was introduced. I don’t know that anyone ever answered the question. The one issue with that is the other party in the trade wouldn’t be able to see you to send you anything. You would effectively have to use your ally as a middle man. Not that doing so would be an issue unless there were cash or time restraints.

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Yeah, seems like it could create an interesting situation. The reason I asked is I got tech from a player that I can’t see - and I couldn’t send anything back to them. I’m just waiting to hear back from them if they’re allied with one of my neighbours, so I’ll let you know the outcome of that.

Edit:
Ok, so it turns out the player who sent me tech was allied with my neighbour which is why he could see me but I couldn’t see him. That makes for an interesting game mechanic! Nice…

51

It does make it interesting, and frankly, I think it should remain that way. If you pay for a Formal alliance, you should get a few perks. Always being able to trade with your ally should be one of them.

Thanks for figuring that out Andy.

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52

So I’m playing in the Dark Spiral game which only allows trading with players in Scan range which is the first time I’ve done … and this is a GREAT feature.

If a posse of people come into a game, they can not help each other out unless they are lucky enough to be near each other … so it’s a big “leveler” and gives the individual player a fighting chance.

As much as I like formal alliances, this defeats that “leveling” since using it as a trade mechanism allows a posse to get really strong at the expense of the less well connected players.

So I’m thinking you might add a secondary option that allows formal alliances, but doesn’t allow trading with that approach - i.e. you must truly be in Scan range.

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I agree Hulk, that’s what I meant by it being “broken”. Right now with formal alliances on, it doesn’t really make a difference.

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Thats a joke right? I only ask because I can’t stop laughing considering it is coming from you given the specific game you’re referring too.

In a custom map where all players except 2 have two neighbors, 30 players have two potential trade partners. The ones on the ends only have a single possibility. When you have a player AFK from the start, as clearly Hulk has, you have a lot of early expansion. Then being able to coordinate with another player to take out one novice player that was almost AFK from the start, and one experienced player, gives you a huge star count from the very beginning. That allows you a huge amount of Science over everyone else. Then you get to start sharing with the number 2 player (my overly friendly neighbor) who also has a higher than average star count within the first week of the game.

So the two of you have the top two star counts and science counts, one week into the game. Now that you are within scanning range, you can easily outpace everyone else in research and you call the field level?!?

I’m sure the scan restriction works better in non-linear maps, particularly the system generated 64 player games, where everyone has a reasonable chance of multiple trade partners, but it doesn’t work at leveling anything in a linear map like the Dark Spiral. Especially for those of us who’s only trading partner is an overly aggressive, emotionally unstable player like my neighbor.

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55

I understand and even agreed with @HULK’s request at first, but on second thougth, your ally is simply acting as middleman of the communication service.

Since Formal Alliances allows you to use ally’s scanners to gather data, and scanners are also used to send trade data, it is straightforward the ability to use ally’s scanners as relays.

But it would be interesting an option to have Formal Alliances that do not share scanners.

56

I don’t disagree in a linear map it can be challenging, but it certainly forces you to talk to your neighbors (which can sometimes require real diplomacy!) … and weigh staying friendly (and sharing tech) with them versus going to war for expansion. Adds a whole new dimension versus what I’ve seen in games where a posse just comes in and dominates.

FYI Brian that you are wrong about the AFK - Orange Circle was my neighbor to the right and they started playing, but then quit. And you made a play to my South that didn’t work out, so I got a head-start that direction too - thanks! :wink:

One player told me they actually had two AFK’ers on either side of them … and we commented that while that was usually a HUGE advantage, it isn’t as much of one here because you have no way to share tech. So you are able to grow easier, but will lag behind in tech compared to other players that are willing to share. Another example of the “leveling”

But sure, if someone is used to showing up in large scale games with a posse of friends, doing the “‘fake’ lets be friendly” to your neighbors, getting those first few levels of tech (and sharing with their friends behind their back), and then leaving 'em out to dry, that strategy won’t work.

Arth talks about being an intermediary … yes, you can be a player in the middle sharing tech between people on either side … which benefits you … but you better be careful if those two players can see each other, because then they can cut you out of the tech transfers and tag-team on 'ya!

Formal Alliances have other advantages - even if you are far away, they are a HUGE help in trying to determine the layout in a dark galaxy. But to echo what Matt and Arth seem to be saying, my recommendation would be that Formal Alliances NOT allow you to trade tech.

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Also, 30 players have two potential enemies and that means two borders to defend, while the ones on the ends only have one. This is what I like the most on trade scanned: it levels the advantage of the corners.

And that’s what I call “bad luck”.

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So yes, your other neighbor stopped expanding by tick 48 then logged on 10 hours later and quit. Basically no different than AFK from the start, just expanded a little earlier then stopped.

As for a bunch of us joining together, that just isn’t true. I joined for eDave because he took some of my feedback. I believe Ross did the same. I had intended to take a break after the team game, but had made that promise to eDave. Ross, I believe, did the same for similar reasons. I did not look at the list closely before joining. Just glanced at the open slots, picked a name and joined. Chris joined after I did, and I had no idea Qwerty was there until someone else revealed that to me. I don’t know that I have ever played with Andy, and was introduced to him in game.

When we did realize we were each in the game together, the only “posse” we formed was that of sharing information to try determining where people were in the galaxy. That was no different than half a dozen other small groups that started for the same reason. I believe there were a couple based on shape or color as well. No long term formal alliance was ever formed, because it was pointless with us spread across the galaxy with no tech sharing. That’s why I tried to get something working with my immediate neighbors.

Sure my play to ally a couple neighbor didn’t work out, but that was mostly thanks to the one crazy neighbor who took offense at another player not signing in for a day and demanded we eliminate him. This is the same neighbor that went psycho on me and had to be reported for extreme language.

So despite Hulk’s assertion that having an AFK next to him was a detriment, it really wasn’t. He got a lot of early expansion, then was able to research his own tech. He continues to snowball in size, and has now hooked up with my neighbor so they (the two biggest and highest Science players) can continue to run up tech while steamrolling others.

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[Comments below are relevant to why trade with scanned players only is a GREAT idea!]

Brian: I didn’t ever say YOU brought a “posse” to the Dark Spiral game … and while I was talking in generalities, that term came from one of the organizers of the first team game who told me they like to bring their “posse” to games.

As an aside, I’m glad the strong, capable players (plus you of course) you mentioned above are in the Dark Spiral game - makes it more challenging. While I’m off to a good start, this will be a lonnggg game … and I’d say Pink/Purple Triangle (Underlord/Rosslessness) stand a very good chance of winning - decent position, good start, and very strong players. But there are lots of other strong players in the game too.

So back to the person who used the term “posse” - I had actually played with them in an earlier game, allied early on (we were next to each other), and did all the “right” things and then only one other player was left as a serious threat … so I thought HEY, I’m going to finish at least first or second. However, it became clear from the Intel Charts that they were passing tech under the table to this 3rd player across the galaxy.

So I simply wrote 'em a note and said “HEY, there’s no sense in pushing ships around if you guys have already decided I’m the odd man out - just let me know” … and hemming and hawwing (it was obvious I had caught 'em with their hands in the cookie jar!), they informed me they were part of the “posse” and I was hosed.  So I just settled for 3rd place - sometimes that’s how the cosmic cookie crumbles!   :wink:

BUT … if trade had been limited to scanned players only, I might have stood a chance against these players who brought their “posse” to the game and basically “used” me (it happens - again no sweat) to advance their efforts … so yea, I think it’s an awesome “leveling” idea!

You wrote: “So despite Hulk’s assertion that having an AFK next to him was a detriment, it really wasn’t” - you read that wrong. What I said was the player who had two AFK’ers next to them did not gain the usual advantage because while easier to expand, they had no one to trade tech with initially. Another great example of the “leveling” effect.

WRT Orange Circle: You were apparently tracking the game closer than me, but what I wrote originally was factually correct. And actually, his expansion made moving through his territory a much more difficult than if he had AFK’ed from the start. From my point of view, your play down South had a dramatically bigger difference in how things progressed and my ability to grow.

I said above that enabling trade with scanned players only (and disabling doing so for formal alliances) means you have to use “real” diplomacy. It’s a lot easier to just ally with your friends, but in NP (and the real world), you don’t always get to pick your neighbors … so there’s this whole new dimension added.

It’s obvious I’m trading tech with Orange Triangle in the Dark Spiral game … so while he has a different approach to the game than me (he probably thinks I’m a PIA to work with!), the layout of the board geometry (and thanks to your play down South) means it is mutually helpful for us to work together. FYI that I did warn him you are a very capable player and from what I can tell, you are putting up a very spirited defense against an increasingly stronger opponent.

Jay wrote a post talking about how NP compares to the Diplomacy Board Game. Right now, being able to trade across the galaxy effectively means Japan and Britain can (easily and somewhat stealthy) help each other. By requiring the trading partner to be within (real) scan range, it closes that loophole and makes the game more realistic.

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Hulk is throwing me a beat-down in Dark Spiral as we speak. I had 2 AFKers on both sides until he showed up, and I didn’t find this to be any huge advantage at all. I was so far behind in Tech by the time Hulk showed up that he is just plowing right through me.